Hydrogen on Solar  
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Hydrogen+on+Solar&spell=1

Hydrogen on demand produced by Solar power will result in the destruction
of Communist and the Capitalist economic systems as we know it.     
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Hydrogen+on+demand+produced
+by+Solar+power+will+result+in+the+destruction+of+Communist
+and+the+Capitalist+economic+systems+as+we+know+it.&btnG=Search

http://www.hgenerators.com/?gclid=CNurhdvki5ICFQHhPAod0W_G-g
http://www.cbwinfo.com/History/ancto19th.shtml
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/2735

Hydrogen on demand produced by Solar power will result in the destruction of Communist and the Capitalist economic systems as we know it.
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=Hydrogen+on+demand+produced+by+Solar+power+will+result+in+the+
destruction+of+Communist+and+the+Capitalist+economic+systems+as+we+know+it.+++&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi 

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/05/zen_blaster.php
Zen Blaster
by Joey Roth, Brooklyn, USA on 05.10.07
 Inspired by traditional bucket-and-bamboo water carriers, Designer Waikit Chung created this digital boombox for monks. While Wakit's design might be slow to market (the Zen Buddhist/ loud music crossover market is definitely niche) the blaster is a great example of design that fits seamlessly within the cultural and natural ecology of its intended users. It seems almost a reaction to the iPod and its ilk, fostering community rather than headphone-assisted isolation....

Read on »
Bad News: Climate Change Faster Than Expected
by Tim McGee, Helena, MT, USA on 05.10.07
 A brevia in this weeks edition of the journal Science (subscription) points out the climate is changing faster than we expected. The IPCC scenario's for climate change begin in the year 1990, and predict the expected changes into the future based on our best understanding of Earth's climate system. The brevia compared our observations over the past 16 years with the predictions from the IPCC. Some of this weeks findings include: 1. CO2 levels match expected levels- but we got the details wrong of why this is the case, miscalculating our sink and sources. Better lucky than good? 2. Global Mean Surface Temperature Increase is at the high end of expected levels. The warming trend is happening quicker than most expectations, for unknown reasons. 3. Sea Level Rise is faster than expected. 2mm/year was expected but we have been getting our feet wet at 3.3mm/year (+/- 0.4). Put together, the past 16 years have exceeded our expectations for change. This doesn't mean rapid change will continue to happen, but we could call these results a 'trend'. The IPCC has been criticized for exaggerating climate change scenario's- but in light of the past 16 years- it looks like the IPCC might have been too conservative. ::Science...
Read
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/05/zen_blaster.php
 Comments (6)
Treehugger, you're losing it. The world's on fire, and you're publishing nonsense like this..? This site used to be a model of eco-awareness - now you're trivialising the issues, and commodifying pseudo-greenness.
May 10, 2007 5:27 PM   flag a problem
 Nick says:
This is the industrial designer's version of those ridiculous poofy hats models wear on the runway. Interesting aesthetic, but kind of pretentious and ungreen.

Those bucket and bamboo water carriers are built that way because it helps with the distribution of weight required to move water. They are not built that way because monks really love putting very small things (like boombox electronics) into ridiculously oversized, cumbersome wooden carrying cases that serve absolutely no function other than to prevent them from doing anything useful with their bodies. Unless, maybe, they're really into mortification of the flesh.

Saying that this art piece fits "seamlessly" into the cultural ecology of its users sounds nice on the surface, but is kind of insulting when you really think about it.
May 10, 2007 6:31 PM   flag a problem
 Ricardo P. says:
Actually, I take that back. After looking at the designer's rationale--it'sa ceremonial device intended for long marches--I'm starting to see the theatrical appeal of the design.

It certainly isn't efficient, practical, or a very good use of wood and storage space, especially not for daily use, but sometimes pageantry is more important than efficiency or natural resources.

DrumBeat: July 1, 2007
Posted by Leanan on July 1, 2007 - 9:14am
Topic: Miscellaneous

Practical responses to peak oil

For those who came in late, it is increasingly clear that global oil reserves are reaching the point where half has been
 used up, called “peak oil”. After this point supply will no longer meet demand, and prices will rise increasingly steeply
 until oil becomes inaccessible.
We don’t really know how this will play out in the complex modern world because we have never faced anything like
 this before. The markets may give a real indication of the change by steadily rising prices, there may be a ratchet
effect with an overall rise but regular short decreases in price (as already seems to be happening), or there may be
 sudden rises and falls until the price becomes meaninglessly high.

how we got here...
The Nazis hated the Russian as Asian non whites and Communism which defeated the German people
the Russian became our enemy because x Nazis ran our spy system as a fiefdom under the rubric of
"the enemy of my enemy is my friend" which ignores the clear historical fact that the Russian
people were our friends and should be credited with defeating Nazism too an deserved to be
our trade partners, instead we locked them out and linked up with Germany and rebuilt it...
Bringing thousands of the Gestapo cronies into high positions in our government.

http://www.dematerialism.net/ops.htm
« View all web results for Hydrogen on demand produced by
Solar power will result in the destruction of Communist and the Capitalist economic systems as we know it.

     
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 Hydrogen on Solar  
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The Nazis hated the Russian as Asian and Communisum which defeated the German people   
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ian+and+Communisum++which+defeated+the+german+people+&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
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Museum of Communism FAQWere Communism and Nazism "morally equivalent" movements? ......
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Dissident Voice : Anti-Communism 101 from Tallinn, EstoniaMay 3, 2007 ...
 After the Red Army liberated Nazi occupied Estonia, ... The removal of the symbol of
the Soviet defeat of German fascism would enhance the ...
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lec5Communism. In Russia, Stalin’s Communism, after the 1917 Russian revolution; .....
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Road to WarHitler is dead and the Nazi bid for world empire has ended in overwhelming
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RnL Forum - Would have germany won...ANd of course the german communists too.
 Im no nazi. not everyone who hates communism is a nazi as u can imagine.
People in germany dont even have flags at ...
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Marxism, Fascism, NazismHere we have the core of Nazism: (i) a very strong dose
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Powell's Books - Review-a-Day - Fateful Choices: Ten Decisions ...
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Robert Lindsay: Russian Neo-Nazi Beheading VideoWith the fall of Communism,
the Russian neo-Nazi movement came into full ... over 50 racist murders
of Caucasians - people from the Central Asian Republics, ...
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http://video.pornorama.com/video7668/Newscaster/'s_Bukkake
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http://www.dematerialism.net/ops.htm
http://www.dematerialism.net/ops.htm
On the Preservation of Species:

A Logical Argument in Support of a Rational Basis for Community including Necessary and Sufficient
 Conditions for Sustainable Happiness for All Sentient Beings in a Hypothetical World

1989 - present

Thomas L Wayburn

The copyright has been removed from this book in recognition of  the principles of Open Source
and Anarchist philosophy.  I expect that decent people will not abuse the content to change the
 meaning or intent.  The reader can determine what I mean by ‘decent’ by reading the book.

http://www.dematerialism.net/ops.htm
http://www.dematerialism.net/ops.htm

Hydrogen on demand produced by Solar power will result in the destruction of Communist
and the Capitalist economic systems as we know it. 
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Communist+and+the+Capitalist+economic+systems+as+we+know+it.+++&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&oi=scholart

Civilization's Wake: Ecology, Economics and the Roots of Environmental Destruction and Neglect -
 all 4 versions »
JW Smith, G Sauer-Thompson - Population & Environment, 1998 - Springer
... the future levels of supply and demand. ... The Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory produced
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Communist+and+the+Capitalist+economic+systems+as+we+know+it.&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=groups&ct=title 

Peak Energy: Solar Power Heading Mainstream
High demand for solar panels and improved technology has kept the price up, .....
 Solar power produced by Solar Systems seems the bets way to go. ...
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Hydrogen on demand produced by Solar , is the destruction of Communist and the Capitalist economic systems as we know it.  
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the+destruction+of+Communist+and+the+Capitalist+economic+systems+as+we+know+it.&spell=1

Solar,Hydrogen on demand is the destruction of Communist and the Capitalist economic systems as we know it.  

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Hidrogen on demand produced by Solar power is the distruction of Communisum and the Capitalist economic systems as we know it.

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Pimpology 3 
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4AlanStone_June_82

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KLAXON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NORTH AMERICAN UNION & VCHIP TRUTH
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Technically Speaking: Gadgets

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 BALLOONS  http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/11921

The idea of constructing a machine which should enable us to rise into and sail through the
 air, seems often to have occupied the attention of mankind, even from remote times, but it
was never realized until within the last sixty or seventy years. The first public ascent of a fire-balloon in France,
 in 1783, led to an experiment on the part of Joseph Mongolfier. He constructed a balloon of linen, lined
with paper, which, when inflated by means of burning chopped straw and coal, was found to be capable
 of raising 500 pounds weight. It was inflated in front of the Palace at Versailles, in the presence
of the Royal family, and a basket, containing a sheep, a duck, and a cock, was attached to it. It was then
 liberated, and ascended to the height of 1500 feet. It fell about two miles from Versailles; the
animals were uninjured,and the sheep was found quietly feeding near the place of its descent.

Monsieur Mongolfier then constructed one of superior strength, and a M. de Rozier ventured to take his
 seat in the car and ascend three hundred feet, the height allowed by the ropes, which were not
cut. This same person afterwards undertook an aerial voyage, descending in safety about five miles from
 Paris, where the balloon ascended. But this enterprising voyager in the air afterwards attempted
to travel in a balloon with sails. This was formed by a singular combination of balloons—one inflated with
 hydrogen gas, and the other a fire-balloon. The latter, however, catching fire, the whole apparatus
 fell from the height of about three-quarters of a mile, with the mangled bodies of the voyagers attached
 to the complicated machinery.
                                                                                          

A Frenchman named Tester, in 1786, also made an excursion in a bal loon with sails; these sails or wings
 aided in carrying his balloon so high, that when he had reached an elevation of 3000 feet,
fearing his balloon might burst, he descended into a corn-field in the plain of Montmorency. An immense
crowd ran eagerly to the spot; and the owner of the field, angry at the injury his crop had
sustained, demanded instant indemnification. Tester offered no resistance, but persuaded the peasants
 that, having lost his wings, he could not possibly escape. The ropes were seized by a number
of persons, who attempted to drag the balloon towards the village; but as, during the procession, it had
acquired considerable buoyancy, Tester suddenly cut the cords, and, rising in the air, left the disappointed
 peasants overwhelmed in astonishment. After being out in a terrible thunder-storm, he descended uninjured,
 about twelve hours from the time of his first ascent.

Fractals:
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PDF Presentation
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Introduction Fractals Gayla Chandler
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PPT]
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File Format: Microsoft Powerpoint - View as HTML Here is a link to a PowerPoint presentation
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- Similar pages Grand Canyon Natural Fractals Screensaver/Background Images
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Fractals: a Symmetry Approach "This presentation is a richly illustrated introduction
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http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/03/obamas-pet-proj.html
« Do Border Fences Work? Main

Obama's Pet Projects: Lasers, Hybrid Hummers
By Noah Shachtman March 13, 2008 5:32:00 PMCategories: Cammo Green, Cash Rules Everything Around Me, Lasers and Ray Guns, Politricks  
 Senator and Presidential candidate Barack Obama today released his list of "earmarks" -- pet projects planted in spending bills.  His defense programs are pretty much standard fare: $6 million to work on the roof of the local Rock Island Arsenal; $7.5 million for cybersecurity research at the University of Illinois.  But he also secured funding for some fairly exotic military science and technology projects, too.

Obama helped secure $1.95 Million for the so-called "Compact Tactical Laser" program.  (The words "tactical" and "laser" together usually mean some kind of real-life ray gun research -- take these two programs, for instance.)  The earmark, given to Optical Engines, Inc., is meant to "enable the scaling and aggregation of a large number of diode lasers so as to increase the optical power and brightness that is delivered by means of fiber optic coupling."  Most of the leading laser weapon researchers now use light-emitting diodes (like the kind on your computer's "on" switch) to "pump," or add extra energy, into their laser systems.

Obama requested -- by didn't appear to get -- $4.8 million for another light-emitting diode project.  This one uses LEDs to heal.  Strange as it may sound, military medicine specialists have known for years that the LEDs can play a role in healing wounds, building muscle, turning back the worst effects of diabetes and repairing blinded eyes.

The Air Force Medical Service (AFMS) wants to accelerate the development of a tissue and wound healing assessment program involving diverse frequencies within electromagnetic spectrum for use in aviation, SPEC OPS [special operations], expeditionary, military, retiree health care, and in response to homeland disasters. The AFMS needs a device to carry into theater to initiate healing and prevent infection. LED DE/RF hand-held tools and therapies will be extremely critical in managing patients both in theater and those affected by homeland disasters and will potentially allow immediate response to wound healing, lessen infection and scaring, and reduce operation and medical costs.  

Obama also landed $1 million for the Illinois Institute of Technology to develop a cost-effective conversion kit to retrofit Army Humvees with electric hybrid systems. It's a trick the military has been trying to pull off for years -- a hybrid can run whisper-quiet, and without gorging itself of fuel.   But the generals have never seemed able to get themselves the battlefield equivalent of a Prius. 

Speaking of alternative energy, Obama got another $1 million for a Chicago State University project to equip drones with fuel cells.  That would let the pilotless planes run for much, much longer than the current, gas- or battery-pwoered models. 

So that's what Obama earmarked. I wish I could tell you what Hillary's pet projects were. 
But she hasn't released 'em, yet.

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/03/obamas-pet-proj.html

Dr. John Lilly: Through the Center of the Mandala
http://youtube.com/watch?v=P9xCwM9osW0

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About Presentation
IPMMiteControl.ppt Is a start with insects.

DO THE HOKEY POKY
Dr. John Lilly: Through the Center of the Mandala 
http://youtube.com/watch?v=P9xCwM9osW0

CONFECTIONS
Tibetan Sand Mandala   
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Espu6XqAWHs&feature=related

The Life and Death of a Sand Mandala
http://youtube.com/watch?v=PSLU9PiXgRk&feature=related

Drepung Gomang Monastic Tour 2007 Medicine Buddha Mandala
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Tibetan monks making sand mandala   
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Tibetan Monks Debating  
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OoMtVN44HXo&feature=related

Sand Mandala  
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Moving Mandala Kaleidoscope (3 of 8) LQ 
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Moving Mandala Kaleidoscope (1 of 8) 
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Kate Havnevik - Kaleidoscope  
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1C8GobS1WE8&feature=related 

Kate Havnevik - Unlike Me   
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Kerli - Love Is Dead   
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Kerli - Love Is Dead 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDdqGUpL8qw&NR=1

Kerli Interview Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-13Cwcyan_g&feature=related

Kerli walking on air
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LriTJy3PunQ&feature=related

"Goodbye" Kerli koiv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwViZ2s_Uu8&feature=related

MEW ( Kerli Kõiv - Not a barbie doll )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV4K0EatV0k&feature=related

david byrne http://journal.davidbyrne.com/

« Congress Holds Rare, Secret Spying Session Thursday - Update Main House Debates, Holds Rare Secret Session »

Pranksters Fight for MySpace Page of Woman at Center of Spitzer Scandal
By David Kravets March 13, 2008 5:45:00 PMCategories: Glitches and Bugs  
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/03/pranksters-undr.html

Welcome to the cia
The Nazis hated the Russian as Asian & non whites also the Nazis hated Communism
because to defeated the German state The Nazis Party the Russian people became
our enemy  because x Nazis ran our spy system as a fiefdom under the rubric of
"the enemy of my enemy is my friend" which ignores the clear historical fact that the Russian
people were our friends and should be credited with defeating Nazism too an deserved to
be our trade partners, instead we locked them out and linked up with Germany and rebuilt it...
Bringing thousands of the Gestapo cronies into high positions in our government.

CIA Home > Kids' Page
https://www.cia.gov/kids-page/index.html
CIA Home > Kids' Page
Kids' Page
Welcome. We’re glad you’re here to learn more about the Central Intelligence Agency.
The CIA is an independent US government agency that provides national security
“intelligence” to key US leaders so they can make important, informed decisions.
CIA employees gather intelligence (or information) in a variety of ways, not just
by “spying” like you see in the movies or on TV (though we do some of that, too).
On the following pages, you can read more about us, play some games, and help us
solve some puzzles. Throughout this section, you’ll also see some top secret things
you won’t find anywhere else.

So if you’re ready to learn more about the CIA, our employees, and what we do every
day, click the appropriate link above and we’ll start you on your way.

Posted: 2007-04-12 07:59
Last Updated: 2007-10-25 07:10
Last Reviewed: 2007-05-02 16:53

https://www.cia.gov/index.html
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==================
OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD
 
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=OPERATION+MOCKINGBIRD&btnG=Google+Search

OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=OPERATION+MOCKINGBIRD&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

Many Americans still insist or persist in believing that we have a free press, while getting
most of their news from state-controlled television, under the misconception that reporters
are meant to serve the public. Reporters are paid employees and serve the media owners, who
usually cower when challenged by advertisers or major government figures. Robert Parry reported
the first breaking stories about Iran-Contra for Associated Press that were largely ignored
by the press and congress, then moving to Newsweek he witnessed a retraction of a true story
for political reasons. In 'Fooling America: A Talk by Robert Parry' he said, "The people who
succeeded and did well were those who didn't stand up, who didn't write the big stories, who
looked the other way when history was happening in front of them, and went along either
consciously or just by cowardice with the deception of the American people."

Major networks are primarily controlled by giant corporations that are obligated by law, to
put the profits of their investors ahead of all other considerations which are often in conflict
with the practice of responsible journalism. There were around 50 corporations a couple of
decades ago, which was considered monopolistic by many and yet today, these companies have
become larger and fewer in number as the biggest ones absorb their rivals. This concentration
of ownership and power reduces the diversity of media voices, as news falls into the hands of
large conglomerates with holdings in many industries that interferes in newsgathering, because
of conflicts of interest. Mockingbird was an immense financial undertaking with funds flowing
from the CIA largely through the Congress for Cultural Freedom (CCF) founded by Tom Braden
with Pat Buchanon of CNN's Crossfire.

Media corporations share members of the board of directors with a variety of other large
corporations including banks, investment companies, oil companies, health care, pharmaceutical,
and technology companies. Until the 1980's, media systems were generally domestically owned,
regulated, and national in scope. However, pressure from the IMF, World Bank, and US government
to deregulate and privatize, the media, communication, and new technology resulted in a global
commercial media system dominated by a small number of super-powerful transnational media
corporations (mostly US based), working to advance the cause of global markets and the CIA
agenda.

The first tier of the nine giant firms that dominate the world are Time Warner/AOL, Disney/ABC,
Bertelsmann, Viacom/CBS, Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation/Fox, General Electric/NBC, Sony,
Universal/Seagram, Tele-Communications, Inc. or TCI and AT&T. This is just the head of the
octopus which has its second and third tier tentacles working together in unison or feigned
division. This would include The Washington Post/Newsweek, The New York Times/Weekly Standard,
Tribune Co., US News, Gannett/USA Today, Dow Jones/Wall Street Journal, Washington Times,
Knight-Ridder, etcetera. A good site to visit for more information is Fairness and Accuracy
in Reporting, a public interest media watchdog group, at www.fair.org/index.html,
www.fair.org/mediafiles/index.html and www.fair.org/extra/9711/gmg.html. Media propaganda tactics
include blackouts, misdirections, expert opinions to echo the Establishment line, smears, defining
popular opinions, mass entertainment distractions, and Hobson's Choice (the media presents the
 so-called conservative and liberal positions).

"Who Controls the Media?
 The Subversion of the Free Press by the CIA, The Depraved Spies and
Moguls of the CIA's Operation Mockingbird", "The CIA: America's Premier International Terrorist
Organization", and "Virtual Government: CIA Mind Control Operations in America" by Alex
Constantine are an excellent source of information on this topic:
www.alexconstantine.50megs.com/the_cia_and.html and www.alexconstantine.50megs.com.
David Guyatt has written books and many articles including one entitled "Subverting the Media"
at www.deepblacklies.co.uk/subverting_the_media.htm. Then there are two articles called "A Timeline
of CIA Atrocities" and "The Origins of the Overclass" by Steve Kangas that are very informative
although from a more liberal perspective. Steve will not be writing anymore articles as he is no
longer with us, having unfortunately met his untimely death that was 'apparently' from a
self-inflicted gunshot wound. If you read about him on his web page that is still available,
you will see that he did not seem like a person who was suffering from deep depression. In his
memory, please take the time to read what he wrote at
http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/CIAtimeline.html,
http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/CIAtimeline.html, and www.korpios.org/resurgent/index.html.
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Iraq_war2.htm
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/sitemap.htm
http://search.freefind.com/find.html?id=2147371&pid=r&mode=ALL&n=0&query=OPERATION+MOCKINGBIRD

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Iraq_war2.htm

Audio: Media & Mind Control in America by Steven Jacobson
#1 http://www.apfn.net/audio/L001I060312110344-mind-control1.MP3  (5.24MB) 22Min 52 Sec
#2 http://www.apfn.net/audio/L002I060312112719-mind-control2.MP3  (4.75MB) 20Min 45 Sec

The reporters committee for Freedom of the Press
HTTP://WWW.RCFP.ORG

Operation Mockingbird: CIA Media Manipulation
APFN MESSAGE BOARD IRAQ WAR RESEARCH
Everything you want to know about the Iraq war and more.....601 Links
http://www.apfn.net/MESSAGEBOARD/02-10-04/discussion.cgi.3.html
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Iraq_war2.htm
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/summer.html
The history the government hopes you DON'T learn!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The events of September 11 Are they what they appear to be? "ALL WARFARE IS BASED ON DECEPTION.
"The Art Of War -- Sun Tzu NEW!Okay, so just who WAS on those aircraft?

OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD
http://www.prisonplanet.com/analysis_louise_01_03_03_mockingbird.html
Operation Mockingbird: CIA Media Manipulation
By Mary Louise

PRESS RELEASE   ·   2/29/2008   · 
Reporters Committee announced new FOI Service Center director
The Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press announced today that Corinna Zarek
 has been promoted to director of its Freedom of Information Service Center.
http://www.rcfp.org/news/releases/20080229-reportersc.html

http://alexconstantine.blogspot.com/
Alex Constantine's Anti-Fascist Research Bin
IN MEMORIUM: This blog is frozen and dedicated to Theresa Duncan
and Jeremy Blake. There will be no more posts here. It belongs to
 the angels, a tomb and a testament that many of their fears were
 real, their deaths a warning shot. I've moved on to another blog.
 Peace. - AC

https://www.cia.gov/kids-page/index.html
https://www.cia.gov/index.html
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April 22, 2003
Tuesday
 
 
Hydrogen, hype and oil
Johnathan Pearce (London)  Science & Technology
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The folk at the U.S. techie magazine Wired have been celebrating 10 years of existence. On the whole I have enjoyed reading that publication, notwithstanding its occasional teenage-like cockiness, obsession with fashion and suchlike. On the whole I regard their particular northern Californian brand of breezy optimism to be a tonic compared to a lot of doom and gloom stuff that comes our way. They are also consistent defenders of privacy and exude a pretty strong libertarian cultural vibe, though many of their authors could not be classed as out and out libertarians.

In the April edition, Wired got two authors, Peter Schwartz and Doug Randall to write about the need for the U.S. government to launch a $100 billion venture on getting the country linked up to hydrogen power in order to wean Americans off their addiction to oil. A lot of reasons are given, many of them pretty obvious, such as reducing reliance on oil from the instable Middle East and reducing carbon dioxide emissions because of the so-called Greenhouse effect.

Their article contains a lot of impressive facts and figures as well as calls to embark on a hydrogen project with the same fervour that JFK asked Americans to put a man on the Moon. But that is my problem with this article, as it applies just as much to Britain as it does to the U.S.A. Surely, do we really want vast amounts of taxpayers' money spent encouraging big energy firms to move into this technology, when that is bound to provide endless opportunities for pork-barrel politics, and the like? And while it was a magnificent achievement, putting men on the Moon came at a vast cost and the bloated bureacracy of NASA is surely a warning of what can happen with such projects, as Rand Simberg has pointed out many times before.

Ultimately, if the price of oil rises to a level which means sharp entrepreneurs think hydrogen-powered energy solutions make sense, it will happen. After all, the oil industry got started in the late 19th century without a vast government-led project. The best thing governments can do in this area is like pretty much everywhere else - GET OUT OF THE GODDAM WAY!
Comments

If this technology works out, then reducing dependence on oil might not be such a good idea after all.

Posted by Ken Hagler at April 22, 2003 03:55 PM

If this technology works out, then reducing dependence on oil might not be such a good idea after all.

Posted by Ken Hagler at April 22, 2003 03:56 PM

Of course, when folk talk about "dependence" on oil, it conjures up the idea that somehow we are compelled to use cars and suchlike powered by oil at gunpoint. Not so. The advantages of oil at present far outweigh the cons.

Of course I also mentioned the Greenhouse Effect. In case anyone mentions this, I remain to be convinced that the Greenhouse Effect is the menace some claim it to be, although unlike some libertarian free marketeers, I don't deny that global warming, if it is really happening, could be a menace.

I am not really able to comment on the tech feasibility of hydrogen, and how we store the stuff at places like gas stations, and so on.

Posted by Johnathan at April 22, 2003 04:02 PM

The article is absurd and misleading.

Unlike the other alternatives listed -- coal, natural gas, wind, water, solar, and nuclear -- hydrogen is not an energy source. It's a storage medium, like batteries.

We typically make hydrogen from hydrocarbonds or water, a process that uses energy -- more energy input than results from burning the output hydrogen.

As a storage medium, it might work well with centralized power sources -- nuc, solar -- although at a high conversion cost.

This makes sense as the 2nd phase of a conversion process. To reduce dependece on oil, replace oil-burning power
 plants first. Probably as they age out.

Then consider the cost/benefit of alternative storage devices for cars/trucks. At that point new tech might have reduced
 the cost to reasonable levels.

Note that first step does little to reduce pollution, esp. we replace oil with coal (cheap, abundent).

Posted by Larry at April 22, 2003 05:10 PM

Larry is correct, the primary source of hydrogen today is from natural gas, and his characterization of hydrogen as a
 storage medium is right-on.

However, there are many "clean" energy solutions currently proposed that, when further scrutinized, have similar
 problems. For example, many wax on about the amount of solar energy that could be harnessed; however, that
energy must again be stored and reused. If this energy were stored in conventional batteries, the amount of heavy
 metals and acids required to make all of those batteries would create an environmental catastrophe when disposed
of. There would need to be a significant amount of energy input for the purification of these materials and an equal
amount of energy input required for the recycling of said materials. Even if we found a way to store solar energy,
without any of the aforementioned problems, the production of solar cells themselves would generate vast amounts
of chemical waste products.

Many of the "environmentally freindly" cars in production now have hundreds of pounds of batteries, and recieve
 thier electrical power from the wall socket. If you were to ask many of the owners of these cars where that energy
 comes from, they would have no clue that the majority of our domestic electrical energy comes from coal combustion.
 I think that I would rather drive an oil-burning car than to derive my power from coal!

I could go on and on, but I think you get the point.

Posted by Ryanspeed at April 22, 2003 05:47 PM

How long before the Chancellor introduces a 'Turkey guts' duty? Strikes me as messy, filling the tank would be a
 fowl job etc...

Does anyone know if there was any truth to the oft repeated claim that Oil companies are not only lobbying against
alternative energy sources but actively suppressing their development? It was a favoured consipracy theory a few
years ago.

Posted by matt at April 22, 2003 06:17 PM

Ignoring whether hydrogen fuel cells are a good idea or not (and frankly I am sceptical), there are good arguments for
government funding of R&D.

Commercial companies generally don't take the risk of developing new technologies when there is no clear commercial
payoff, especially when risk capital is in short supply as is the case currently.

There are many examples of how government R&D funding resulted in new technologies and even new industries,
including the internet.

Posted by Phil Bradley at April 22, 2003 06:23 PM

Here in L.A. we used to have trains running all over the city. Then GM and other companies secretly bought up the
train companies, let them fail, and then sold buses to the city. That was many decades ago, but perhaps it's because
of things like that that conspiracy theories about alternative energy have traction.

As far as NASA is concerned, I'm not familiar with what others think about this, but I doubt that the U.S. would have
 landed on the moon in the 60s if it had been left up to private companies. Where's the (immediate) profit? Recall
Sputnik, the Space Race, etc. etc.

Posted by Lonewacko at April 22, 2003 06:35 PM

Phil,

Commercial companies generally don't take the risk of developing new technologies when there is no clear commercial
payoff

So why should govt? Would these companies have spent more on R&D if their profits weren't extorted from them by
govt to fund R&D?

There are many examples of how government R&D funding resulted in new technologies and even new industries,
 including the internet.

And what technologies were lost when this funding was extorted from taxpayers and corporations?

That which is seen and that which is not seen.

Posted by blabla at April 22, 2003 06:43 PM

Larry's last point is a good one. Because Hydrogen doesn't produce energy...the pollution caused by fossil fuels isn't really
 eliminated, merely relocated from the cities to power plants.

Posted by Mike Van Winkle at April 22, 2003 06:47 PM

Comments? Yeah- that article prompts a bunch of them.

1. All the fuel cell proponents, these writers included, seem to be in love with hydrogen, when lots of other (oh the Horror!)
 hydrocarbon compounds should theoretically work in a fuel cell, with far simpler supply and storage problems. As I understand
it, a fuel cell is simply a means of controlling an oxidation-reduction reaction (which transfers electrons-negative electrical
charges- from one ingredient to another, oxidizing one(adding electrons-not necessarily having anything to do with oxygen)
 and reducing the other(removing electrons). Toss a match in a puddle of gasoline and you have an oxidation reduction
 reaction: the gasoline compounds are oxidized and the air is reduced.
All a fuel cell does is to get in the middle of the reaction and use the two ingredients as a sort of battery. The electrons go
off through a wire, do some work somewhere and return to complete the reaction.
Hydrogen makes the reaction very simple, just 2H2+O2->2H2O, which is all very nice but at the cost of some severe practical
 problems. Sure you don't produce any CO2, but the article later points out that when the hydrogen is produced from hydrocarbons,
the same CO2 is nonetheless produced earlier in the supply chain. This is like the electric cars that are powered by an outlet in the
 garage. The owner can kid himself that he is not burning any dirty hydrocarbons and is only using clean electricity as long as he
 doesn't look past his electric meter.
If methane or other simple hydrocarbon compounds are used in the fuel cell, the storage and supply problems become simpler.
Molecular hydrogen is the smallest molecule - just six quarks and two electrons. It tends to diffuse through welds, rubber and
even steel. It is very hard to condense or compress and it is extemely explosive. It doesn't pipeline very well and if it has to be
transported very far it would almost certainly be recombined with some carbon, then reseparated again just for reasons of
safety and economy.
But if we are looking at other hydrocarbons, then we are back to those evil fossil fuels.

2. The article said that fuel cells are efficient - 2 times as efficient as internal combustion engines. This is like saying that
Fu Manchu was twice as kind as Saddam Hussein. Gasoline engines are about 20%-25% efficient. That is not so good.
One of the major reasons for their inefficiency is the fact that their fuel is a mixture of all sorts of hydrocarbons with
variable vaporization temperatures. So what shoots into your engine is a mixture of explosive gases and non explosive,
essentially non burning liquids. The liquids shoot out having contributed little to the power of the engine. In fact, the
catalytic converter - a typical government solution to a problem - just converts the liquids to water and CO2 without
 producing anything but a bigger hole in your wallet.

The "Hundred MPG Carburators" of the 1930's did exist as curiosities. Unfortunately they were such a mass of heaters
and plumbing, necessary to vaporize most or all of the fuel, that they weighed as much as the engine itself. Nowadays,
I have to wonder if a more compact, solid state carburator, perhaps using exhaust heat, couldn't accomplish the same
thing. That would make it about twice as efficient as these fuel cells.

3. Remember the Hindenburg! I bet Osama can't wait until we have hydrogen storage facilities in all the big cities.

4. "But what about Wind, Waves and Water Power?", say all the tree huggers. Well what about them? We have been
waiting for about a quarter century now and we are still waiting. They are not mobile or cheap or widely useable. If you
are not on a seacoast, near a waterfall or in Kansas, you are going to have to get your energy pipelined or wired to you.
More cost. Also the whole idea of using more energy to dissociate hydrogen from water than you get by burning it later
 ought to be considered when comparing the efficiency of fuel cells and internal combustion engines.

Posted by Doug Collins at April 22, 2003 07:40 PM

Doug:

Good points. Ballard Power Systems, a company local to where I live, has had a lot of success marketing their fuel cells to
 major companies in the auto industry. Their most successful applications run on natural gas, not hydrogen, probably
because it's more practical.

One thing that causes a lot of confusion about combustion engines is that combustion efficiency plays a fairly small role
 in determining the overall efficiency of the engine. I don't have the figures at hand, but the combustion efficiency of
contemporary auto engines is quite good. Most of the "lost" energy comes from either theoritical thermodynamic limitations
 of the heat cycle (which can't be avoided), or from practical limitations such as internal friction and the need to cool engine
components. All the fancy carburettors and control systems in the world will have no effect on those factors.

Recycling heat from the exhaust system has promise. In fact, that's what turbocharging does, and that's one reason it's so
common on diesel engines.

Posted by Tedd McHenry at April 22, 2003 08:21 PM

Todd-

You seem to be more knowledgeable about auto engines than I am. Is combustion efficiency better than I thought?
 Do modern engines manage to burn the nonvaporized part of the fuel or does fuel injection make small enough
droplets to overcome this problem? If a significant fraction of the fuel is not burned, a major efficiency loss seems
unavoidable to me.

Posted by Doug Collins at April 22, 2003 08:28 PM

Embedded above are comments on R&D, to my mind more important thant the almost mythical benefits of fuel cells.

We have NASA taking us to the moon. And we have fusion, atomic powered airplanes, and countless other failed or
 (more kindly) premature technologies, that private -- even academic -- R&D outfits would not have lavishly funded.

Was NASA a success? To my mind, no. We landed on the moon and got a few great rocks, and other odds & ends of
 knowledge. But not worth the cost.

What we should have received for this almost unimaginable investment: a useful space infrastructure. A working station
 doing useful research at a reasonable cost, paving the way for orbital industry, acting as a low-earth orbit launch station
 for moon & solar probes.

Only a gov't could tackle a project with such promise, spend so much, and get so little.

Posted by Larry at April 22, 2003 09:59 PM

There are 2 main supposed sources of hydrogen:

- electrolyse it, given power from someplace else (whoops, pollution!)

- make it from oil (whoops, this was supposed to *reduce* dependence on oil, not use more oil for less oomph, right?)

Posted by Julian Morrison at April 22, 2003 10:33 PM

Sometimes, government intervention in "forcing" new technologies can be worthwhile. The estimable motor journalist,
engineer and libertoid Gordon Jennings (RIP) chalked up the existence of the air cooled aircraft engine to the U.S. Navy,
 which forced contractors (and the market) to develop technology that wasn't in existence at the time it was demanded
(around 1922).

The Navy wanted air cooled engines because they would be lighter, allowing planes to fly farther and faster on less fuel than
 heavy water cooled engines. The defense contractors said "nope, can't be done." The Navy said, "Okay, no fat defense
contracts." Within a decade, the aircraft manufacturers were cranking out reasonably good, lightweight air cooled engines,
 at an only slightly exhorbitant cost. The military technology eventually found its way into the civilian market, much like the
way Stealth Technology (tm) has clearly infiltrated the dress socks & clothes dryer market.

I'm not sold on hydrogen fuel cells, cold fusion, or harnessing thousands of ordinary house cats to giant treadmills, BTW,
but I think anything that reduces our reliance on militant Wahabbi lunatics is a national defense issue, and worth looking into.

Posted by Omnibus Bill at April 22, 2003 10:48 PM

Try Ken's link right at the top to this article about converting lots of different kinds of waste into oil cheaply.

Quite an interesting piece, and more promising, I think, than investing in hydrogen-burning engines.

Posted by mark at April 22, 2003 11:07 PM

Honestly, did anyone besides Mark and I even check Ken's link at the top of this comment thread? How a groundbreaking,
 paradigm-shifting discovery like that can not only go unreported by Samizdata, but uncommented as well is beyond me.
Here are some excerpts:

______________
In an industrial park in Philadelphia sits a new machine that can change almost anything into oil.

Really.

"This is a solution to three of the biggest problems facing mankind," says Brian Appel, chairman and CEO of Changing World
 Technologies, the company that built this pilot plant and has just completed its first industrial-size installation in Missouri.
"This process can deal with the world's waste. It can supplement our dwindling supplies of oil. And it can slow down globa
l warming."
...
The [Thermal Depolymerization Process, TDP] process is designed to handle almost any waste product imaginable, including
turkey offal, tires, plastic bottles, harbor-dredged muck, old computers, municipal garbage, cornstalks, paper-pulp effluent,
infectious medical waste, oil-refinery residues, even biological weapons such as anthrax spores. According to Appel, waste
goes in one end and comes out the other as three products, all valuable and environmentally benign: high-quality oil,
clean-burning gas, and purified minerals that can be used as fuels, fertilizers, or specialty chemicals for manufacturing.
...
"The potential is unbelievable," says Michael Roberts, a senior chemical engineer for the Gas Technology Institute, an energy
 research group. "You're not only cleaning up waste; you're talking about distributed generation of oil all over the world."
...
If the process works as well as its creators claim, not only would most toxic waste problems become history, so would imported
oil. Just converting all the U.S. agricultural waste into oil and gas would yield the energy equivalent of 4 billion barrels of oil annually.
 In 2001 the United States imported 4.2 billion barrels of oil. Referring to U.S. dependence on oil from the volatile Middle East,
 R. James Woolsey, former CIA director and an adviser to Changing World Technologies, says, "This technology offers a beginning
 of a way away from this."
...

______________

Cool, huh? If this works, it will be the ultimate triumph of the free-market. The idea was had not by a government lab or organization, but by a clever entrepeneur. It provides any business with industrial waste a way to not only cheaply recycle that waste, but to profit on it as well. Its development is funded primarily by private financiers, with a few million in seed money from the the government. It promises to end the West's reliance on foreign oil while simultaneously cleaning up all carbon-based industrial waste (basically everything except nuclear waste). That means, for the first time in human history, we will have a closed-cycle economy in which waste is recycled into useable, valueable, useful products. Fuel cells schmuel cells, TDP certainly deserves a lot more interest than it is getting.

Posted by Byron at April 23, 2003 01:49 AM

Byron.

You are falling victim to the classic environmental BS that I had attempted to outline previously. All of the aforementioned energy reclamation processes require ENERGY INPUT!!! The overall energy expenditure is greater
 than with oil, but if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside to believe that crap, go ahead!

And on a different note, there have been a number of comments regarding the costs of the US space program of the '60s,
yet none of the commentators have included the political capital gained in their cost analysis. Public policy cannot be equated
only in regards to environmental and economic impact.

I think that irregardless of a moral basis for communism, the soviet communists would have made significant political gains in
 the environment of the '60s, had they been the first to the moon.

The same could have been said for the fact that they were the first in space, had they not barbequed half their population in
 that endeavor.

Posted by Ryanspeed at April 23, 2003 04:28 AM

http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/003374.html

http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/003374.html

A big problem with adoption of a hydrogen economy is that to be competitive with oil, the price of oil has to rise. But as oil
prices rise, sources that hitherto were not economically viable to exploit become viable. There is no fixed level of oil reserves.
 The extractable oil in the world is different at $10, $20, $40 and $80 a barrel (by wildly different amounts).

Posted by David Gillies at April 23, 2003 10:16 AM

Ryanspeed,

Did you actually read the article?

Thermal depolymerization, Appel says, has proved to be 85 percent energy efficient for complex feedstocks, such as turkey
offal: "That means for every 100 Btus in the feedstock, we use only 15 Btus to run the process."

So whilst there's an energy input there's also a net gain. Plus the nice side benefits of reducing landfill costs etc...

"This is our first-out plant, and we estimate we'll make oil at $15 a barrel. In three to five years, we'll drop that to $10, the
same as a medium-size oil exploration and production company. And it will get cheaper from there."

As the more accesible oil sources run out surely these kind of prices would be competitive?
I wouldn't say the backers fitted the 'tree hugger' stereotype either.. So I'm not really sure why you're so dismissive, I thought
it looked a promising technology.

OT I think the political capital derived from projects such as the Moon landings is frequently overstated. Sure, people admire the
 acheivement, but do you really think they significantly altered their politics accordingly? How many people embraced the Command
economy when they learned that Gagarin was in space? Politicians frequently use this argument to justify their own ego driven,
money grabbing agendas simply because the costs and benefits are so unquantifiable.

Also, The 'barbecuing' remark was unfortunate particularly given the recent loss of the Columbia IMHO.

Byron,
Wasn't just you and Mark. Believe it or not, the crap Turkey guts joke I made earlier was a result of reading the article, not the
 manifestation of a fixation with offal... ;)

Posted by matt at April 23, 2003 10:47 AM

Ryanspeed.

You are falling victim to not RTFA! The BIG DEAL IS THAT TDP IS 85% ENERGY EFFICIENT! You'd know that if you had read it.

Honestly, it would be nice to hear some informed criticism of this article, since Discover is 100% positive on TDP and the writer
presents no cons or obstacles to it. It sounds like a lot of hype, except for the fact that it is already working on an industrial scale
 at a plant in Missouri. Perhaps it's the real deal.

Posted by Byron at April 23, 2003 12:11 PM

matt - my bad, I skimmed through the comments looking for discussion of this, but missed your remark.

Posted by Byron at April 23, 2003 12:13 PM

The U.S. has been down this road before. In the late 70's the federal govt. spent some $27 billion on synthetic fuel development
 such as processing shale oil to produce gasoline. Then the price of oil tanked and the project became economically unfeasible.
 If producing hydrogen for consumer use made economic sense, Exxon/Mobil would develop it.

Posted by Anthony Suruda at April 23, 2003 04:38 PM

The U.S. has been down this road before. In the late 70's the federal govt. spent some $27 billion on synthetic fuel development
such as processing shale oil to produce gasoline. Then the price of oil tanked and the project became economically unfeasible.
If producing hydrogen for consumer use made economic sense, Exxon/Mobil would develop it.

Posted by Anthony Suruda at April 23, 2003 04:38 PM

Re the turkey guts article:

Down in the text, it mentions that one of their major innovations is a dewatering subprocess that uses a pressure drop to flash
water to steam. That goes through a heat extraction loop to reclaim as much of the heat energy as possible. Apparently, the
 extraction of water from refuse was one of the major energy costs in recycling of this type. So perhaps the process is more
efficient than older methods.
I'm a struggling middle-aged petroleum geologist,still waiting for my first obscene profits to roll in, so I have no bias toward
these folks, but from the little I know about the refining end of my industry, this sounds plausible.

By the way, in a reply to an earlier comment in this thread, I carelessly addressed the writer -Tedd- as Todd... My apologies and
 I am still curious about fuel efficiency if he cares to comment.

Posted by Doug Collins at April 23, 2003 08:06 PM

Yeah Doug, that's the crux of the whole process, isn't it? Previous versions evaporated the water out with ungodly amounts of
heat, the cost of generating which made the process energy inefficient. The new innovation heats the sludge to only 500 degrees,
 not too much more than most home cooking ovens. But it also applies a large amount of pressure to the sludge simultaneously.
The water is then flash-evaporated out by an instaneous release of that pressure, which is much more energy efficient. All in all,
it's an extremely clever manipulation of the Ideal Gas Law. So apparently simple to laymen like me, it makes me wonder why
somebody didn't think of this before. Especially me, darnit! ;)

Posted by Byron at April 23, 2003 09:25 PM

Keep in mind, the turkey gut extractor is only a prototype that right now is in the process of being hyped to venture capitalists.
 You should bring your large grain of salt to THAT pitch meeting.

Even if it works as advertised, the big question is, how scalable is it? Does the magic heat extractor work as well if scaled up
100 times? Do we have enough turkey guts (or whatever feedstock) to produce a meaningful amount of oil? Is the "oil" this
 thing produces substitutable across the board for petroleum?

One of the efficiency dodges that the entrepeneur is probably engaging in, BTW, is how much energy it takes to produce the
feedstock, or, (scalability again) how much it would take to produce enough feedstock from lower-grade materials to generate
 a meaningful amount of oil.

Posted by T. Hartin at April 23, 2003 09:58 PM

Thank you, T. Hartin.

As a financial guy, I was reluctant to jump in on the this. As one who has seen thousands of proposals, I agree that they need to be viewed with a contrary attitude.

If 50% of them worked 50% as well as promised, we'd have paradise on Earth and colonies on Andromeda.

Interesting tendency on these thread lately -- libertarian topics (i.e. did we get a good return from NASA) get little interest. More interest in turkey guts to energy schemes, and war rally editorials.

Nothing wrong with this, of course. More a reflection on where we're at now.

Posted by Larry at April 23, 2003 10:41 PM

hmmm...in light of the Middle East, "it's all about oil" theme, I think the technological discussion is quite appropriate to a Libertarian blog. In fact, I had planned on starting a blog around very similar themes. How can we solve the world's problems *without* government intervention (which sure as hell ain't doing a good job of solving them, now).

1) On the topic of "hydrogen economy", it's wayyyyyy overblown. As others have said, hydrogen is a storage medium, not a primary source of energy. (At least not on Earth!) The hydrogen economy isn't going to solve our problems. However, there are technologies already in place that do a very good job at solving those problems: ethanol and methanol. Especially here in the US, ethanol and methanol, produced from agricultural feedstock, would go a longgggg way to killing those damned farm subsidies, while reducing oil imports. As for the "production" of energy sources, already in the us about 1,500,000 million barrels of (oil equivalent) are produced every day. This includes ethanol, MBTE, etc. And for those of you who think the government is over regulating. Pure ethanol fuel must be "de-natured" (made toxic to humans) otherwise it is taxed as Liquor instead of fuel. (Doh!)

2) As for government funding of research....I must admit that I'm leaning more towards gov't funding of *pure* research as well as some for *applied* research where it is in the interest of the military. Here in the US, a lot of academic engineering research is funded through DARPA, an agency of the Department of Defense. As the military is often considered one of the few legitimate reasons for gov't, I think that overall DARPA funding is legitimate.

Posted by Nate at April 23, 2003 11:45 PM

Sorry not to link this, but I got it in email and can't find the link. It is very germane to this discussion though--the turkey gut system does not produce that much gas. And you can't really blame OPEC for this one - we really have more than sufficient gas to be found in the US, but because of a mixture of disincentatives and some unfortunate changes in the sociology of the oil and gas industry- we haven't been looking for it.

April 21, 2003, 11:51PM

Natural gas still depleted
Bloomberg Business News

NEW YORK -- The time of year to rebuild natural gas inventories has begun, and U.S. supplies are so depleted it will be hard to sock away enough for next winter.

That means a hot summer that increases the gas used for power generation may push wholesale prices past the all-time highs touched earlier this year.

The amount of gas stored in the United States is at a record-low 623 billion cubic feet, following a colder-than-normal winter, and production is behind demand.

"Sometime between now and the winter you're going to see a big pop in gas prices," said Steven Farris, CEO of Apache, a Houston-based explorer and producer of oil and gas. "We don't have enough natural gas to meet demand."

Production fell by about 2.6 percent in 2002 and is projected to recoup only part of that decline this year as demand gains almost 3 percent, according to the Energy Department. Storage facilities need to be filled at a record pace to reach normal levels by winter, when demand peaks, the agency said.

Natural gas heats about half of U.S. homes and generates 17 percent of the nation's power. Electricity prices rallied as gas prices climbed earlier this year. Some makers of fertilizer and chemicals, for which natural gas can be the biggest raw material cost, cut production earlier this year because they couldn't recover the higher expense.

April is typically the end of the heating season and the month when inventories start to rise, heading to a peak at year's end.

"If we have a hotter-than-normal summer, with some key nuclear plant outages and a couple of hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico, then you're probably looking at record-low storage